Why Pro Athletes Are Betting on Bitcoin, Crypto & Prediction Markets | Tristan Thompson & Paul Grewal
Tristan:
[0:00] If I'm going to do something, I'm going to be two feet in. And I've chose to
Tristan:
[0:03] do that in Web3 and crypto because I get an excitement. It gives me the same adrenaline rush that I did or that I had for like a game seven in NBA finals. That's what crypto gives me, that burning sensation inside.
Ryan:
[0:19] Bankless Nation, very excited for this episode. We have a lawyer, Paul Graywell, and NBA pro athlete, Tristan Thompson on Bankless today. We got law and basketball. And the thing that unites both these guests, I think, is crypto. We'll get into that. Welcome to Bankless, guys.
Tristan:
[0:34] Appreciate having us. Excited to be here.
Paul:
[0:36] Thanks for having me.
Tristan:
[0:37] Paul, how's it going, man?
Paul:
[0:38] Going well. How are you, sir?
Tristan:
[0:40] I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. You're holding up the coffee shop meetings and all that stuff, man. It's a change of pace for you.
Paul:
[0:47] It is a bit of a change of pace, but I'm most excited about our calves. You know, they're looking good this fall. They're looking really good.
Ryan:
[0:54] Guys, we actually have to get into this. So, Paul, you are the chief legal officer of Coinbase. Tristan, you're an NBA athlete. This is an interesting combination for a podcast episode. How do you guys know each other? Paul, are you just like a Cavs fan? Is that what happens? And Tristan, you're a crypto fan?
Paul:
[1:10] I'm a Cavs fan for sure. Been rooting for Cleveland going back now 40 plus years. My heroes were guys like Ron Harper, Brad Doherty, Sean Kemp, and now Tristan Thompson. And so when I saw Tristan, yeah, it's true. it's true much respect to what Tristan, you and that team in 2016 were able to pull off for us. Much respect.
Tristan:
[1:34] Are you from Ohio? Are you from Ohio? I am.
Paul:
[1:37] We're raised in Northeast Ohio.
Ryan:
[1:39] Which part?
Paul:
[1:40] Akron. Went to LeBron's rival heist.
Tristan:
[1:44] Okay.
Paul:
[1:46] I've been following the travails of the cast for many years, but obviously when I saw Tristan take such a prominent role and start giving a prominent voice on all topics of crypto, I thought, you know, if I ever had the chance to chat with him, I'd have to take advantage of that. Thought we'd take advantage of that opportunity today.
Tristan:
[2:04] Yeah, no, most definitely. I mean, you know what I start to realize, especially being in the space, how many people in the web through the crypto space, you know, love basketball. I think it's such a, you know, the way I look at sports right now, it's an entertainment, but it's almost a way to kind of bring different worlds together and have that unity. And it's an excitement, right? I think the same way where people get excited when the charts are pumping is the same way you guys are excited when you see a fast break dunk or a guy get a major poster or making a game winning three, right? It's all the same type of a jungle rush.
Paul:
[2:33] A hundred percent. And it's also global, right? Like everywhere over the world, people want to be a part of it. And so, yeah, I think the overlap is really,
Tristan:
[2:41] Really strong.
Tristan:
[2:42] Yeah.
David:
[2:43] You know, Tristan, it's not often that we have pro athletes on a bankless. As the bankless listenership will know, Ryan and I are just massive sports fans. Every single sport and I'm totally kidding my heart got ripped out of my soul when it comes to NBA when the Sonics got traded to OKC back when I was a child and I unfortunately haven't haven't watched too much basketball since but I do know
Tristan:
[3:04] That a lot of
David:
[3:05] Pro sport athletes love getting paid in Bitcoin. And now there's like a series of just history of some pro sports athletes just talking about this. And I kind of want to ask from your perspective why this is true. This is Russell Ong who tweeted out in 2019, pay me in Bitcoin. And so the history, the lore behind this is like he had like a $13 million contract from the Panthers. And he demanded that half of that be paid in Bitcoin price at the time of the contract. and that Bitcoin price was $22,000. And when he was finally paid, Bitcoin ended up being traded at $88,000. So his $6 million got turned into $20 million. But this is not just one story. This is not just the only story about pro athletes falling in love with crypto. There's Sean Culkin, Aaron Rodgers, Odell Beckham Jr., Clay Thompson. There's just a collection of people who decided to get paid out in their contracts with Bitcoin. We won't talk about Tom Brady, but it goes even further than that. There's like pro sport athletes that have gotten endorsements with crypto. But over the years, I've just noticed a particularly strong resonance between pro athletes and crypto. Why do you think that is?
Tristan:
[4:17] I think this is the reality. I think the way you can explain it, and if your cousin or aunt or uncle asks, you know, why did they do that? I think it's the reality is that this, you know, first of all, you give a lot of these guys a lot of credit by doing the homework and researching. But I think just from a very general perspective, it's a...
Tristan:
[4:35] It's a form of just,
Tristan:
[4:36] You know, hedging your bet, but also looking at it as an investment, right? I think to get to the pro level, you have to invest in yourself. You got to believe in yourself. And I think that's why a lot of guys that are in pro sports always tend to put themselves in a position of believing what the runway can look like and what the opportunity is. So for guys like Russ, Odell, Aaron Rodgers, even myself, you know, even now, just understanding the amazing technology that's built behind that. But the reality is that, you know, the gains and the potential earnings is far more greater than whatever these institutions can provide to you, whether it's on the money market or when they come and say, hey,
Tristan:
[5:14] we'll give you 4% a year and you should be licking our chops and thanking us so much for this. But it's like the reality is that there's so many other avenues, opportunities like taking, you know, putting your money in Bitcoin or that you can get way higher gains than one can even imagine.
David:
[5:29] Part of the story i'm wondering if if i had to like give give my answer to this and i'm not a pro sports athlete so i know very little but i would imagine a typical story for a pro athlete is that you know they make it pro and then their first contract with the nfl nba mlb is millions of dollars and so they kind of get whiplash from not having a lot of money to having a ton of money and i would expect that there's like a just a lot of baggage that comes with that All of a sudden, there's a lot of people who are saying to them, hey, let me manage your money for you. Let me do that on your behalf. Like, yo, you are now wealthy. Like, let me take a cut of that and I will help invest. And there can be variations on level of trust, how trustworthy and how... Honest these people are, these money managers are. And then on the flip side of things, there's Bitcoin, which is don't trust anyone. Don't trust banks. Don't trust financial advisors. Don't trust anyone. Just use Bitcoin. I'm wondering if that story resonates with you. It's just like, I don't really know who to trust with my windfall of capital, but that's exactly the nature of Bitcoin. It's like, trust no one. Is there something to that story?
Tristan:
[6:38] Yeah, there's definitely some correlation. I think the reality is this. Most athletes like myself, we come from underprivileged communities. We come from communities that don't have much runway in terms of seeing what success looks like. And for us, you know, even for myself, as an example, you know, I got to the MBA at the age of 19, did one year at University of Texas, and went from having nothing to having millions of dollars. And then the best way to put it is like survivor's remorse, right? You know, once you make it, everyone from your neighborhood feels like they made it as well. So everyone's trying to pull and tug on you. And like you said, now these financial guys who you don't know that don't look anyone don't look similar to anyone from your community is coming in and telling you hey trust me give me your money and you shut your mouth and go play basketball and I think it's crazy financial industry is the only industry in the world And the only sector in the world where you as an individual, when you make money, you are trusting a complete stranger and giving them that much control and right, right? Like, it's no different than me. I chose this shirt that I'm
Tristan:
[7:37] Putting on today.
Tristan:
[7:38] No one told me to put this shirt on. You know, for your guy itself, like your significant other, you chose the woman you wanted to marry her a day. You chose the car you wanted to buy. You know, like the financial industry is the only industry where you have to trust a stranger. And I think because if you watch the ESPN documents, the 30 for 30 about athletes going broke, it's because you're trusting a complete stranger and you don't know where their heart is. So I think that kind of motivated athletes to say, hey, let me take more ownership into my finance because we're making this for such a small window. Let me find out the tools and education where I can take my money and put into other financial institutions. And I think that's where Bitcoin really became a star. It became a star in its role, and it really helped athletes open their mind to say, hey, let me take – and I'm not here to give financial advice. Like everyone always says, I think you have to diversify your portfolio, right? If you're just making, say, a million dollars, you should take a good portion of it and buy yourself, you know, whether it's ETH, Bitcoin, whatever those alts may be, because you just never know what could happen on a rainy day with these financial advisors, right? I think there's an article that just came out two days ago about Rashad Jones with the safety for the Miami Dolphins. He's suing Merrill Lynch and he came to the settlement because that financial advisor stole money from him, right? So those stories are what's kind of pushing the narrative right now for athletes to take more ownership in their finance.
Ryan:
[8:55] Yeah. What portion would you say trust of athletes are willing to do that or able to do that? Or like what's necessary? Because it seems like it's super easy, as David says. You got a ton of financial advisors approaching you. You got to be one of the few that says, look, I'm not going to listen to this traditional advice, the guy in a suit coming to me and saying, hey, here are the safe assets to invest in. I'm going to learn. I'm going to educate myself. I'm going to figure out maybe what this crypto thing is and what percentage of my portfolio to allocate. what percentage of athletes are like able and willing to do that and what what's their first step like what what do you recommend.
Tristan:
[9:29] Yeah i think it varies right because honestly so many of teammates former teammates have called me literally for the last six to eight months asking me for this information asking like hey i want to get into crypto i have this i have this extra liquidity i have this money i want it to work and do something because i don't truly believe where it's sitting right now is actually giving me the best returns or the best upside. So what I say to guys is the advice that I'm gonna give a rookie is totally different than a guy I'm gonna give 10 years plus in the leagues, right? So for instance, with a rookie, right? You're on a rookie contract. Of course, you're gonna have to, you know, figure out, you know, what's your overhead gonna look like. But what I say for rookies and the young guys, it's the money that you would spend for miscellaneous and leisure, allocate some of that money to that, right? So if that's, if your total contract or your bi-weekly paycheck, you set aside 10% of that for miscellaneous and leisure exposure, take 5%, take half of that and go open yourself a wallet and go do your deep dive, whether it's buying ETH, whether it's buying Bitcoin, whether it's buying Salon XRP,
Tristan:
[10:29] Do the education research and just save that money that you would spend at the nightclub, maybe a couple of nights instead of going to the nightclub, you're buying, you're buying, you know, a digital asset, right? Use that to start building up your honeycomb savings where you're in full control,
Tristan:
[10:44] where no one's getting a fee, no one's getting a cut, and you're basically your own CEO. And I think when I tell guys that, they feel that motivation because I think more than anything else, athletes want to start feeling like their own boss. That's why if you see like LeBron, you know, myself, Alex Rodriguez,
Tristan:
[11:00] Derek Jeter, Magic Johnson, right? We've all had this this notion and this motivation to become our own boss, because we see how these owners, how wealthy they've become by taking risk and believing in themselves. Why can't we not do that? A guy that's more of a veteran that asked me these questions, a guy that's made over 100 millions of dollars, I say, what's your risk appetite, right? Some guys like to go to Vegas and try to hit big. What's equivalent to Vegas in crypto is your trading and leverage trading, right? And it all depends on that. But I also tell guys like, also, take your USDC, Take your stable and put it in safe yield protocols where you're going to make an 8% to 12%, right? There's great protocols that are safe, that are backed by amazing founders that have the liquidity that you know you're going to be protected as best as possible, right? It's all about diversifying. So that's what I tell guys. It's more based on your risk appetite. But I always, always preach to guys because, you know, I'm a big pay it forward type of guy. and that's kind of been my niche in the NBA, especially as I got older in this space and in the league where I want to set guys up for success. Nothing will make me more happy than a guy stopping me at dinner or lunch and saying, you know, Tristan, that advice you told me to go put it in a, you know, a moon wall USDC vault. I was able to, you know, take care of my brother and his kids where they didn't have to worry about where the next check's coming from. I gave them that financial freedom.
Ryan:
[12:21] Let's talk about those USDC vaults for a second, actually. And I want to bring you into this conversation here, Paul, because one of the things, one of the benefits we've enjoyed in crypto and decentralized finance is yield. And we scored a big win under the Genius Bill, and that went through Congress this summer. And of course, there is the ability for exchanges and even DeFi protocols to provide yield on stable coins. So you can get up to 3% to 4% yield, sometimes higher in DeFi. My understanding is that the banks right now, the bank lobby, they want to take back on this. So they basically are saying something to the effect of, oops, we screwed up. The bill that we negotiated in Congress, the genius bill, had this thing that, you know, makes it such that we can no longer rent seek and get yield ourselves. And we want to close this door. And they're actively trying to do that as part of market structure, Bill. You guys have been a bit on the offensive, Coinbase has, in making sure that they don't get to close the ability of retail to get their interest,
Ryan:
[13:26] their yield, and their rewards on things like stable coins. Can you talk about that battle that you're having in DC right now and the shape of it.
Paul:
[13:34] Well, it's a really remarkable turn of events because it wasn't that long ago that when the Genius Act was passed, when we finally had legislation on stable coins, that we had a consensus. Democrats and Republicans alike supported the idea that customers were entitled to rewards, period, end stop, and that they shouldn't be denied some portion of the economic returns coming from those stable coins in the form of rewards. Here's the critical thing that It really has me baffled.
Paul:
[14:04] This was not some deal cut in some back room by a few politicians or with a couple of people from one industry or another. This was the result of a very robust, comprehensive, complete conversation that involved all sorts of interests, including those of the big banks. Because they were absolutely hell-bent on keeping one privilege entirely for themselves, which was the ability to issue interest to their account holders. Issuers of stablecoins can't do that as drafted, but what was preserved was the ability for distributors like Coinbase, but many others to pay rewards out.
Paul:
[14:41] So to come back now, months after the fact, and as we're trying to push forward comprehensive legislation on market structure and try to sneak back in a take back of that ability to issue rewards, we just think is disingenuous and frankly disrespectful to all of the elected members of Congress who work so hard to forge a reasonable compromise. I don't think they're going to get away with it. I think Congress and the Senate in particular is well aware of what's going on here. They can see it for themselves. But it's important for us to all call out this anti-consumer, anti-customer behavior for what it is and to preserve people's ability to earn rewards on their stable coins, just as, by the way, banks issue rewards to their customer holders. When, for example, you take a credit card out and you earn some miles on United or Delta or whatever, that's exactly what they're doing. And yet they're somehow arguing that it's anti-consumer when it comes to stablecoins. We just don't think that applies.
Ryan:
[15:43] So you think we're going to win this war, Paul, which is good. Can you give us the shape of kind of the rivalry in DC? Because, I mean, it seems like the bank lobby has kind of run that down for a while. And crypto is much more the new kid on the block, right? We've just sort of started to have a presence, I would say, in, you know, much thanks to Coinbase for being part of the Vanguard here in the 2024 election. And that was the first time it felt like DC felt the presence of crypto fighting on behalf of crypto users' rights. But it's the bank lobby. They've been there for a long time. They are well-funded. They're almost a quasi-public institution at this point in time. Maybe we win this battle, but they're not going away and there are things within DeFi and crypto that are completely going to disrupt and dismantle what they do And are they going to take that lying down? Like, how are we positioned as far as like Team Crypto versus Team Bank right now?
Paul:
[16:42] Well, there's a lot for Team Crypto to be proud of. If you look back to the results of the election last fall, we elected the most pro-crypto Congress in history. We obviously have a very pro-crypto presidential administration. As a result of that, we've been able to get legislation passed on a bipartisan basis at a time when there's very little happening in Washington on a bipartisan basis. So there is, I think, a lot for all of us, not just Coinbase, to be proud of. But I think it would be a huge mistake for anyone in crypto to assume that the battle's over and that we can just rest on our laurels. You are absolutely right. The big banks are formidable. We have to respect their prowess and their skill. And they're not just going to sit back and take this lying down going forward. They're going to continue to press for the imposition of rules that would constrain crypto, keep crypto on the sidelines from the financial system and deny athletes like Tristan and others, but all Americans, you know, real choice and real opportunity for financial freedom. I think the main thing for everyone to pay attention to is in passing this legislation,
Paul:
[17:50] Are we enacting standards and adopting rules that serve people's interests, serve regular people's interests, or are we simply cutting deals in order for the traditional financial service providers to maintain their position of influence? I don't think there's any question that when you now have tens of millions of Americans, 52 million Americans or more who have owned a digital asset or one type or one stripe, that elected officials have no choice but to continue to pay attention to that constituency. And so I think we're going to see reasonable, sensible legislation pass, but we have to absolutely be vigilant. We can't go back to the way things were just a short while ago.
David:
[18:30] You know, Tristan, when people get into crypto, they tend to pick a character class. Now, mine and Ryan's character is we like blockchain architecture, And we also kind of like the legal fight, the political fight. That's the stuff that we like to talk to Paul here about. But then there's also plenty of other characters in crypto, right? The traders, the meme coin investors, the PerpDex traders, more recently prediction market traders, a lot of trading.
David:
[18:55] How tapped into the crypto circus are you? What's your crypto character class? What do you pay attention to?
Tristan:
[19:01] Everything. Everything. The whole thing. No, it's because it's the key, right? I think what I always preach to people, especially for myself, right? You have your institution side. So, you know, your guys like Paul and the guys that are in Washington and getting bills passed, legislation and forward moving the movement from institutional side. But also you can't forget about, you know, like they say, our DGEN and our trenchers, right? I think they're all important because it's a team, right? I think our goal at the end of the day is to elevate this digital finance and digital freedom, and everyone plays a significant role. And anything I talk about, I always bring it back to team aspect, right? Like Paul, he's the go-to guy, right? He's like LeBron, but in order for LeBron to win, he's got to have the Tristan Thompson, the J.R. Smith, the Kevin Love.
Tristan:
[19:46] Everyone plays a key factor because for us to elevate, it's going to come from all of us from within because we all want the same thing. And for me, it's important. And every morning, you know, I'm on CT and I'm staying up to date with the culture because one thing about this space, the trend is always changing and it's moving very fast, right? One day it's AI, next thing you know, it's the neobanks, next thing you know, it just changes so much. Then you got plasma come out of nowhere and then you'll have a plasma 2.0. You just got to always stay at the top of the game because I think, especially for me and the fact that a lot of people have reached out and kind of, that are inquiring from the Web2 space, inquiring about crypto. I think it's important for me as being a vessel and someone that takes a lot of pride in moving the space forward, I have to be well-versed. I have to be well-versed. I take a lot of ownership, especially like everyone, right? If I'm going to do something, I'm going to be two feet in. And I've chose to do that in Web3 and crypto because I get an excitement. It gives me the same adrenaline rush that I did or that I had for like a game seven in NBA finals. That's what crypto gives me, that burning sensation inside.
David:
[20:51] Is that why you're here? That's why I'm here. I'm here for the risk. I'm here for the adrenaline.
Tristan:
[20:56] You know what it is? It's the excitement of what the future will look like for me, right? Like the future that I see in the space, right?
Tristan:
[21:04] I like to tie it to the early dot-com era or even later than that or even before that, the early gold rush era, right? It's important to be well-versed, right? And, you know, I have friends that are trenchers that are trading all day on Axiom. And I have friends like, you know, a friend of mine, you know, Bo Hines and Eric Trump, where we're sitting down talking about what's next for the space and how can, you know, whether it's USAT, what their goal is, or with American Bitcoin, what Eric is doing over there. So I want to be full versed. And I think that's, I've been very fortunate to be able to be in these different rooms and be accepted. I think the one thing is, you know, when I came into space, you know what's, you know, it's a narrative, you know what's the narrative, right? Celebrities coming in. and I actually hate the word celebrity.
Tristan:
[21:47] It's like, no, I'm just a guy that had success in a different, in a different realm. And now I'm entering a new chapter of my life where I want to position myself to be something that people could be proud of and myself be proud of. So, you know, when I walk in the room, everyone's like, okay, what's, what's, what's this mean token? When's the CA and what's he going to extract this time? But it's like, no guys, no, I'm actually here to do like the right thing. And like, help everyone be great, but more so onboard people, right? Like that's where I see my calling, right? It's almost being like the Malcolm X, almost being like the person that pushes
Tristan:
[22:20] the humanity forward in a grander scale. So for me, I think if you're going to be in here, you got to know everything, whether it's, what's the yield on AeroJone right now, or when, you know, when Jerome Powell's about to make an announcement and everyone, you see Wales shorting BTC, right? Like you got to know everything in this space. So that's been my approach.
David:
[22:41] But if you had to pick one, like one app or one activity, whether it's like speculating on meme coins or maybe it's yield farming, yield optimization or airdrop farming, like what's your favorite thing to do?
Tristan:
[22:55] I would say this. If you asked me three months ago, I was a big, like, DeFi. Like, I was sitting in, like, six AeroJone pools. I'm probably sitting in about three now. But I was probably in, like, six AeroJone pools. It was, like, a USDC, CBBTC, USDC, ETH, or ETH BTC pool. But even now, but now, you know, I understand more about the space in educating work. You know, I've done a little bit perpetrating. You know, I like a little Las Vegas from time to time. Who doesn't, right? Who doesn't like to hang out with their friends and take a roller there? But what I always tell people, and I think what happened on Friday was that a lot of people learned that I come from a world where I came from nothing and I refuse to go back home with nothing. So I always tell people, if you want to get into that leverage trading, it's fun, but don't put your whole life savings in it. That's just not even smart as an adult. I have kids. I have responsibilities. I'm not doing this. So that's kind of what's been.
Ryan:
[23:48] I mean, it sounds like you're managing things somewhat like us, which is like you got a buy and hold portion of your portfolio and you've got like a degen portion of your portfolio where you're having fun and doing things. I want to ask you about this. So you talked about like being on Aerodrome, being on these, you know, liquidity pools and DeFi, that sort of thing. How hard do you find it? Right. Like if you're talking to an average, you know, NBA pro athlete or something like that, like obviously their first step is to buy some crypto and exchange like Coinbase. But right. Could they get to the level of doing the things that you're doing and opening a Coinbase wallet and going into DeFi and earning yield that way? Or do you find it is still too like, dude, it's too nerdy. It's like too hard. The edges are too rough. Like, how far have we come on the this is easy to use for the everyday person front?
Tristan:
[24:36] Well, you know, for me, it definitely took some time. You know, I took myself to crypto Web3 school and I actually hired like tutors to literally teach me from, you know, what is an L1? What is DeFi? What's DPA? And what's like, what's the purpose? You know, like I took the time and research to learn that. So when I talk to, you know, friends of mine or the Web2 community, you know, I like to explain to them for work in vocabulary that's digestible for them, for them to understand, because it's not as complicated as it may seem. It's more so if you can just show them examples and what I love is like I even have guys that will call me and I'll just go on you know Google Meets and I'll share my screen and show them how to do get in and out of pools and show them how to swap and open a Coinbase wallet and go about that and remember your password and not know Kevin Durant you know I love Katie he's a good friend of mine I've known him for about 20 years and I'm like we don't want those scary moments right Paul's like yeah we had that on stage we got a good clip of that but no it's I think For us leaders in this space, we just got to do and just keep improving
Tristan:
[25:38] How we articulate it, right?
Tristan:
[25:40] Because the one thing when I sit on these calls or I'm in TGs or I'm on these calls with these founders is that you guys are building amazing tech. You guys are doing things that people would go to the end of the world to discover. But the problem is they don't know how to verbalize and articulate in a way where their aunt and uncle can digest it. Because one thing about human beings, you guys all know this. If you're using big words that I don't understand, I'm tuning you out. So for me, it's being able to articulate that and explain to them. And I've been able to help teammates, whether it's opening up yield pools, whether it's teaching them how to stay, or just teaching them how to open up a wallet and just buy and bridging and swap fees, right? Just like, here, keep swapping. Don't just take the first swap fee that they give to you. Don't negotiate it, right? Just in life. So it's possible.
Tristan:
[26:23] We just got to keep more familiar faces. Being able to give that financial literacy is going to help this runway pick up at an ultra fast pace.
Tristan:
[26:32] Yeah. One of the
Ryan:
[26:33] Cool things we've seen, Paul, this here has been just actually regulatory window open up where Coinbase can do some cooler things. David and I affectionately call this like the DeFi mullet, which is you have like fintech and finance in the front, but you have the party in the back. You got the DeFi in the back. And we've been seeing Coinbase do more and more of that. Basically, like just integrate trading pairs from decentralized exchanges on base, for example, into the main Coinbase wallet or allow for enhanced DeFi yield opportunities or even allow for staking within the app. One of the jurisdictions states in the country that seems like, The last one to onboard is actually David's home state right now of New York. And so even there was a recent press release I saw from Coinbase, which is like October 8th. Starting today, New Yorkers can stake their crypto on Coinbase. Starting today, October 2025, I've been able to do this from Virginia for like years within Coinbase. I want to ask you a regulatory question, right? Why is New York, which is supposed to be the center of finance in not only America, but the world, why are they so behind on crypto? Why is it that David can't do the DeFi mullet thing in a Coinbase wallet because he lives in New York City right now?
Paul:
[27:52] I should say maybe one of the reasons why I like your analogy so much is because it wasn't that long ago, as a much younger man, I had a real mullet.
Ryan:
[28:00] No way. We need pics. We need pictures. This is incredibly bullish.
Paul:
[28:06] Instagram through TikTok, so good luck finding it,
Ryan:
[28:09] But it's out there. Oh, man. Okay, you heard them, internet. Okay, we're going to find this.
Tristan:
[28:13] Where's this yearbook? Where's this yearbook?
Ryan:
[28:15] We're going to find this now. We're not going to go there. You just unleashed something.
Paul:
[28:19] But listen, look, I think that on the question of New York, which is obviously slightly more serious than my high school mullet, The fact of the matter is that, you know, New York has historically been one of the most innovative jurisdictions for reform and innovation and regulation, right? It was the state that came up with the whole concept of the BitLicense and Coinbase was really the first BitLicensee of any stature going back now over a decade or more. And, you know, the fact is that New York did finally come around and authorize Coinbase to offer staking to our customers just in the last week. But I think in between those two points in time, you're right that I think it has struggled to keep pace with the innovation that we've seen elsewhere, not just in the United States, but all over the world. And I think, you know, part of that may just be, you know, resourcing at the agency. There are so many regulated entities subject to New York jurisdiction that I think the New York DFS has a unique challenge in making sure that it has the right resources to oversee all that activity.
Paul:
[29:30] And yet, you know, our attitude has always been we're not going to get overly frustrated, even where we've had our challenges in New York. We're going to keep at it. It is a critical market. We have a lot of customers there and a lot of people who want to do more with their crypto than they're currently able to do. And so, you know, I think in situations like this, you have to just exhibit a bit of grace and patience. I hope you all saw that in our fight with the SEC. You know, we tried to focus on our legal disagreements, even though we recognize there a lot of good people there who were trying to do the right thing,
Paul:
[30:01] but that maybe were stepped on by the previous political leadership at the agency. And I think that, you know, at the SEC in New York and elsewhere, often patience is rewarded. And so that's really the attitude we've had as we've tried to pursue something much more long term than just, you know, rushing out products and services that may be of the moment.
Tristan:
[30:20] Paul, I'm curious if Coinbase, you probably can't answer this,
David:
[30:23] But I'm going to ask you anyways. I'm curious if Coinbase has any prediction market plans. Robinhood has integrated Kalshi into their front end. There's our prediction markets on base. I could imagine the mullet could grow in the prediction market direction. Do you have any sort of information you could give us about this?
Paul:
[30:40] Well, what I can say is that it's hard to ignore the excitement around prediction markets. There's no question about it that this idea that has been around for a long time, and I remember reading papers about prediction markets going back years and years ago, is now definitely something that's captured the public's attention. And so we are certainly paying careful attention to that. And anything that continues to bring people online and on chain, we view as a good thing. And so when we see Kalshi, Polly, and others getting real traction in the market, we congratulate them. We wish them continued success. And we absolutely will continue to pay careful attention to how our customers are interacting with these other products and services in ways that we think are ultimately going to benefit crypto as a whole.
David:
[31:27] Are you a user of any prediction markets? Do you like to, if you like to watch sports, do you like to also have your laptop open with a prediction market on the side while you watch the sports?
Paul:
[31:38] Well, I have been known to wager a bit on sports from time to time. Have you ever
David:
[31:44] Made a wager that is of a direct relationship to whether or not Tristan wins a game?
Paul:
[31:54] I would never bet against Tristan if that's what you're asking.
David:
[31:58] Has Tristan made you money?
Tristan:
[32:00] My man, my man.
Paul:
[32:02] What Tristan has done is bring me joy, which is much more important than money.
Tristan:
[32:07] Peace and happiness, Paul, right? Peace and happiness.
Paul:
[32:10] 100%, 100%. And no amount of money can buy the joy of seeing your team in your city finally win a title after decades of utter futility. So this goes way beyond what a couple of extra bucks from a parlay that hits can do. But look, I will say that what is I think maybe most exciting about prediction markets is less the ability to bet on the Cavs or the Browns or any of the team that you may be reading for. I think it's much more about distributing information and making instantly available globally information that used to only recently be in the hands of a couple of people or maybe even just one person at any point in time. That's where I think the real potential of this thing hits. It's to go beyond just a wagering to providing a whole new way of distributing information that is extraordinarily powerful and efficient. And, you know, that long term potential as much as anything is what has us excited about the future production markets.
David:
[33:09] Tristan, we're seeing, I don't know if it's a war yet, but I'm predicting a collision between prediction markets and sports betting platforms like FanDuel and the other one. I know.
Ryan:
[33:22] DraftKings?
Tristan:
[33:23] DraftKings, DraftKings.
David:
[33:24] Thank you. Just from the pro athlete perspective, what do you guys think about those platforms? Like, do you care about them? Do you think they're great? Like, what's the take? I don't really know.
Paul:
[33:34] I love, yeah, no,
Tristan:
[33:35] I, I, I, what I love about the prediction market, you know, what I love more is that it's empowering communities, right? I think that's, especially coming from the athletic background, you know, what is the one thing we always preach, you know, that our fans and our community are number one, without our fans, we're nobody, right? But the cool thing about the prediction market is that people can come together with an idea or a thought or a sentiment and really stand on that, believe it, preach about it. And it actually comes to light, right? And it's, Actually, the way I look at it right now is that these platforms are becoming disruptors to the CNN, the Fox News, the BBC, the Al Jazeera. And I love that, right? Because that's what crypto is about. That's what Web3 is about, right? We're becoming disruptors in the space. But being disruptors because we know what's out there that could be better and improved, right? And I think it's kind of like these financial advisors, right? They're just old dogs that don't want to learn new tricks. They take your mind to go to Fidel and say, here, sit down and just be enjoying, right? So prediction market, it's a way to challenge the general media because at the end of the day, Like we all know, CNN, they promote stuff that is one side. Fox News promotes something that's another side. But with prediction markets and these platforms, it allows for us, let's all take off the gloves. Let's just have a real honest conversation. And how do we really effing feel?
Tristan:
[34:56] And what you notice is that the way the community comes together and has an idea, it's kind of right more than 50% of the time. So it's like, okay, this is onto something. And that's why, you know, the New York Stock Exchange, that's where they made that investment in Polymarket, right? Like, because they see what the future is like. They see how strong a community can move the needle with a result in the world.
David:
[35:20] Last night, I was watching my Seattle Mariners play Ryan's Canada, Canadian Blue Jays, Toronto Blue Jays.
Tristan:
[35:26] I'm from Toronto, by the way, so I'm very upset about this. We're down 0-2, guys. I'm sick to my stomach. I'm sick.
David:
[35:30] Just for a little bit of context for the listener, the Mariners won 10-3, and there was a three-run home run that took Mariners from three to three to six to three. And I pull open my phone and I refresh the Polymarket page and the odds had already updated. By the time it took me to pull open my phone and refresh the page, the odds had already updated to like 80-20 to the Mariners, which is just great. It's just like a second thing to look at. We get it, man.
Tristan:
[35:56] We get it, David. We get it.
Ryan:
[35:57] Stop bragging, dude. Come on, man.
David:
[36:00] The great part was just like the real-time nature of just everything. Thing i i've never been a sports betting participant i don't really know if there was that level of participation that was allowable by sports betting because there's a there's a sports book not a poly market like poly market is a marketplace a sports book is just a book now like i don't know if you have an opinion as to like if like sports books are better than prediction markets or prediction markets are better than sports books maybe they just both give fans ways to participate in, you know, just beyond just watching the sports? Maybe you're like, oh yeah, both are great. I don't know. Do you have an opinion on which one should win if there is a incoming collision between these two platforms?
Tristan:
[36:43] Well, I think the way that the world's turning and the way that the world's progressing, I honestly truly believe that, you know, prediction markets will...
Tristan:
[36:54] They essentially have a high chance of taking over these sports folks, right? Because these sports was all just based on somebody. It's almost like when you look at like fantasy sports, when you have, when you make your team, right? Like ESPN fan, they give you these numbers, they give you these projections, but you don't even know who the person is, right? You don't even know their credibility, right? And, and, and they really don't even, even what I like to say, like, I honestly believe that there, there is a guy at home right now that knows more information about basketball or baseball than who's sitting on ESPN. That's supposed to be that sports analyst. and it's being shown day in and day out right now where people are now tuning in to these prediction markets to get their news, data, and information than turning on the TV. So I really truly believe that what's going to happen? No different than what the institutions are like, we can't beat you guys, so we're gonna try to figure out a way to join you and like try to have a collab and offer you a lot because you're getting too powerful because we don't wanna become obsolete and become irrelevant. So I think that's what's going to happen, that, you know, your Caesars, your MGMs, they're going to come to these prediction market platforms and say, hey, we need you to be part of this. Let's do a collab. Because we know that the Gen Z, the people that are 16 or 18 to 25, they don't care to go to Vegas and sit at the MGM and do the sportsbook and look there all day. But what they will do is open a laptop and get on Twitter and make the predictions and give their thoughts and ideas.
Ryan:
[38:19] Paul, what's the current state with prediction market regulation? So one thing that's been super interesting to David and I as we've explored the subject, particularly with respect to, as Tristan was saying, how prediction markets are kind of taking over sports betting is the different licensing regimes and regulatory regimes that they fall under. So like a FanDuel or DraftKings, you have to get a gaming license on a state-by-state basis, right? It's almost like a casino because you're betting against the book. With prediction markets, they are now open across states, regulated by a federal entity, the CFTC. So they can come under the CFTC, kind of like, I don't know, futures, derivatives, types of licensing, and be available to everyone. It's again, because you're not betting against a centralized operator. It's a peer-to-peer prediction marketplace. It truly is a marketplace. But what's the state of play there? Because I know there are some in the halls of government who would stop that if they could. That is, they would block prediction markets entirely, might even want to block them from the political arena, but certainly they'd want to block them from kind of the sports prediction market arena. Are we safe there with respect to our regulation? Are there some battles that are coming? Is there any legislation that you see in the works?
Paul:
[39:36] Well, the battles aren't just coming. They're here right now. You've got active litigation in multiple federal courts over this pretty simple question, which is, you know, does the CFTC as the federal regulator of duratives markets have exclusive jurisdiction over prediction sites and their activities? Or is there still a role for state gaming commissions in spite of what seems to me at least to be pretty plain language in the authorizing statute for the CFTC, which is the Commodity Exchange Act? So I think the courts are going to ultimately have to resolve this question because, look, the state gaming commissions have enjoyed a long run as a major venue for regulating gaming activities across the country. And yet, you know, I think this new technology is fundamentally challenging that in ways that threaten that dominance that they've had. The Supreme Court's going to ultimately have to make the call there for sure. But I think the industry is on the right side of the law. Congress could always move to change that. But as we learn in crypto, getting legislation passed on almost anything is no small task. And in the meantime, I think what you're going to see is politically, the pressure just continue to mount in favor of prediction markets. Because as we saw with Bitcoin and ETH and cryptocurrencies more generally,
Paul:
[41:04] Once tens of millions of Americans make their preferences known by voting with their wallets and acquiring these things, politicians tend to fall in line because they want to continue to get reelected and maybe only slightly more generously, they want to continue to serve the preferences and interests of the people who put them in office. So I do think that time is on the side of predictions markets. I think the law is absolutely on their side. And so between those two forces, I think we're going to see these things around and not just around, but thriving for many, many years to come.
Ryan:
[41:39] How about leadership, though? We don't currently have a CFTC chair. Is that a very crucial position for this prediction markets piece?
Paul:
[41:47] I think it's certainly important. And I'm hopeful that the administration working together with the Senate Ag Committee in particular will fill the CFTC chair positions quite soon. We've seen some names floated for that. And I'm extremely encouraged that the names that are bandied about have all expressed strong support for sensible crypto regulation and strong support for the crypto industry more generally. So I think that's going to resolve itself soon. And in the meantime, we're seeing... The critical legislation beyond just prediction markets, but really implicates market structure as a whole, move forward. And hopefully, we're going to see all this come to a head once Congress is back in session, once we get past this shutdown in just a matter of a few months.
Ryan:
[42:35] I'm sure there's a prediction mark out there on who the next CFTC chair is. So everyone can make their bets. Yeah, Paul, you can be in the running. Or, yeah, well, we have a fantastic SEC chair right now, but, you know, maybe in the future, consider that position as well. And actually, Paul, you mentioned the kind of market structure in the Senate. So just last week, it seemed like, okay, so market structure, of course, we had the clarity bill in the House that passed. Now the Senate wants to kind of, they have the not invented here syndrome. So they want to make their own, you know, draft of this. So they're doing that. The Republican version looked pretty good, but now last week, it seemed like the Democratic senators kicked back a version that would effectively, I haven't looked at all the language, but effectively, it feels like it will ban DeFi in the United States. So it's kind of the thing like all DeFi protocols are intermediaries. So are software developers. So are the front ends, you know, all of this anti-crypto army stuff that we've dealt with in the past. I thought that was behind us, but now Democratic senators are coming up with this version of the bill. What does that indicate to you that we still have some battles ahead? Do senators not know that the anti-crypto army got like defeated in 2024 and that it's a bad position to do it? Or are they just trying to torpedo market structure in general?
Paul:
[43:54] Well, I think it's important to take a step back and remember that nearly 300 members of the House of Representatives, including something like 78 Democrats, voted in favor of clarity. And so there's a clear bipartisan consensus that market structural legislation makes sense. And in the Senate, what I would say is about the proposal that was leaked just a few days ago that you referenced, while it's certainly not something we would ever support, in fact, Coinbase has been quite loud and quite active in opposing any efforts to unduly restrain DeFi and to continue growth. I think, you know, the most I can say is it shows that, you know, we now have both sides once again engaging on the issue. And while there's a lot of work that remains to be done, and while I think it's critically important that we continue to protect DeFi from overburdensome regulation that would kill it before it even really had a chance, we shouldn't lose heart or lose sight of the progress that we've made. It's going to take some time. We're going to have to work through some of these issues with the leadership on both sides of the aisle, but we're going to get there. We did it before.
Paul:
[44:59] We're going to do it again. And I'm confident we're going to keep DeFi protected even as we move forward with the broader legislation.
David:
[45:06] Getting into more prediction market subjects. Tristan, you're building an app, an app that is an integration of prediction markets, sports, and fantasy?
Tristan:
[45:16] Tell us a little bit more about that.
Tristan:
[45:18] Yeah, no, you know, it's called basketball.fun. And for me, you know, being in the space, you know, I've always had the building mentality, right? You have to build yourself up to become an NBA player. You know, I wasn't lucky to wake up one morning and be who I was. It took time. It took practice. It took multiple hours of refining my game to put myself in a position to be where I'm at. And it's no different than in crypto and in Web3, right? So I wanted to build something to basically improve where I saw there was a flaw. and really from this whole conversation we've been having is challenging what has been written or been around for a long period of time and saying there's better, there's a more efficient way. And, you know, what I created was basically empowering the fans to really show the true value of a player. And that's what Basketball Without Fun is, right? And, of course, it's being on chain, so we're allowed to do a lot more creative things, but allowing every player to be a tradable digital asset, right? Right.
Tristan:
[46:11] And basically, are you tokenizing players?
Tristan:
[46:15] Yeah, tokenizing players.
David:
[46:16] You're tokenizing players.
Tristan:
[46:17] Yes.
David:
[46:18] How does that work?
Tristan:
[46:19] So the way it works is that, so every player in the NBA that's on an active roster will basically be tokenizing. The way we do it, the way that we're coming out with version one, because we want to basically put in stages, right? I think anything you create, you want to have a roadmap, right? So stage one and how we're doing is we're tokenizing every player and we're allowing the people to determine the value kind of very similar to a meme token, right? Every player is basically a meme token and you're able to buy, sell, and trade players based on their performance. It could be performance, but it also could be based on popularity, sentiment, their value, right? Because I think the NBA or ESPN or ESPN's fantasy apps, they're going to determine the value of a player just based on performance, right? And I think that's the wrong way to look at it, right? I think the way you do the value of a player, it's a full scope, right? Of course, performance is a big thing, But you also have, for some people, how they are in the community means a lot, right? Or how they interact with their families or how they even dress, right? Fashion has become such a huge thing in the NBA and in sports where guys' popularity has been driven based on what they're wearing. So for us, we're allowing a marketplace for people to come on this platform and whether – I'll give you an example –
Tristan:
[47:32] If a guy in Miami loves Khalil Ware, he's a second-year player. He doesn't have the biggest name, doesn't have that, but people in Miami understand his value to that team. So you come on the platform, you'll buy shares, but we also did it where it was pretty cool where you can open packs, right? Because I want to give you that nostalgic moment, like back when we were eight years old, when our parents would take us on the weekend to go open a trading card pack, and we'd get excited that we got, you know, for Paul, to be excited to get a Hot Rod Williams pack or a rookie Brad Doherty pack, right? So like we want to give that nostalgic moment because I think that's very important in sports is that adrenaline rush moment. But getting to the technological aspect, the token aspect is that we want people to be able to buy early, believe in a player early because I think I'll use Ty Drum as an example, a player on my team. Going into the season last year, he was probably ranked in the 300s out of 400 players, right? He was probably near the bottom, right? Because what happened the year before, right? But imagine that one kid that really loved Ty Jerome that went to University of Virginia and said, hey, I'm going to buy a bunch of shares of Ty Jerome because I truly believe he's going to have a breakout year. And so happened he finished third in six man of the year that token goes up that market cat goes up no different than buying a mean token and you look like the guru that had I almost want to encourage who really knows basketball and who knows the game on a deeper level more than just the generic
Tristan:
[48:56] NBA Today all those TV shows that just only promote the good players guys we already know LeBron's good he's been doing it for 23 years tell me a guy that's going to be the next up and coming star where a guy believes in him buys his token and he becomes the star and Martin Kapp goes up people make money and it makes it way more of exciting than just the standard fantasy over and under fantasy
Tristan:
[49:18] Old school BS.
Ryan:
[49:20] This is very cool. So this is called basketball.fun. I believe it'll be out on May the 22nd. Is that the release date?
Tristan:
[49:26] Yeah, so we're launching opening week of the NBA season. And the reason why we did that is because like you guys know, and anyone that does fantasies that the week before the season starts, you don't know what happens at preseason. Guys can get hurt. Guys can get injured. Guys can be having a great preseason. Another example, Eamon Thompson, a place for Houston Rockets. He's been having a stellar preseason where they're saying he could be a potential all-star, right? So the reason I want to do it is because everyone's going to be in that mode of that fantasy, gambling, prediction market space the week before Seenstar. So I'm like, you know, this is the perfect time to drop it because that's when the iron's going to be hot and guys are going to be ready. Like they say in the trenches, ready to cook.
Ryan:
[50:05] Yeah, very good. And that's, of course, it's an EVM chain. So it's going to get more people on chain using our wallets like Rabi and the Coinbase wallet,
Ryan:
[50:12] of course, and Metamask and all of these things. So it sounds fantastic. We'll include a link in the show notes. so people can figure that out. Paul, I think we're at the end of this episode, but I have absolutely no segue for this next question, so I'm just going to flat out ask you, okay? Just throw it out there. What is up with Gary Gensler's deleted texts? Was the guy seriously deleting his texts while in office? And do we have any recourse for this? That's our conclusion question, so take us home here, Paul.
Paul:
[50:40] Oh, boy, that's a heck of a segue. way.
Paul:
[50:43] There is zero question that Gary Gensler's text records at the SEC were destroyed. And they were destroyed at a time where the SEC had an absolute obligation under US law to preserve them for a whole host of reasons. And this isn't just me speculating about this. The SEC has something called an Office of Inspector General, which is kind of an internal investigator who's responsible for looking into these issues when people raise questions. And I
Paul:
[51:12] Office of Inspector General at the SEC issued a scathing report confirming that all sorts of records were deleted and destroyed despite those orders to preserve them. And as you guys know, we've had active litigation against the SEC now for some time where we've been looking to get those records because it was relevant to all sorts of open questions that remain about the Gensler enforcement regime, even though Gary is now long in the rearview mirror. And so we're pressing a federal district court in Washington to allow us to continue to investigate this issue, get access to those decisions that were made and information around them so we can shine a bright light on this and make sure it doesn't happen again. And it's not just about vengeance or ill feelings about what happened over the last four years. It's mostly, and for us at Coinbase, entirely about making sure this never happens again. The best way you can make sure something doesn't happen again is to shine a big bright light on what happened in the past and make sure that everybody knows about it. So we're going to keep at it.
David:
[52:16] Paul, do you remember April Fool's Day 2023 on crypto Twitter?
Paul:
[52:21] I do. I do.
David:
[52:23] Do you remember what I'm referring to right now?
Paul:
[52:25] Well, I think you're referring to the announcement or the premature announcement about ETF approvals, if I'm not mistaken. No, no.
David:
[52:34] Maybe it's 2022. 2023 or 2022, Gary Gensler put on the deal with it sunglasses on his profile picture.
Paul:
[52:42] I try not to remember those. Yeah.
David:
[52:45] Paul, I don't get mad very often. But when I saw that, I got mad. Because to me, that was an admission of guilt from Gary Gensler. Who else is on Twitter engaging with Gary Gensler? What other community is giving Gary Gensler all of his engagement? It's the crypto community. And when you put on the just to deal with it glasses on April Fool's Day, which gives you the deniability, it's like, it's just April Fool's. To me, that was an admission of guilt. And I know that you are a lawyer and you will say, well, technically, that's not an admission of guilt. That was an admission of guilt.
Ryan:
[53:21] I love, David, that the trolling from Gary Gensler is worse for you than the potentially illegal stuff he was doing.
Paul:
[53:28] I'm not sure that would be in the top five things that I had a problem with during the Gensler regime, but I hear you. I feel you. And look, I mean, only slightly more seriously, guys. This would be funny. If it weren't, you know, our government, this is the, these are the officials who are appointed and elected to represent and serve us who were doing these things in our name. And so, you know, it would, it would be as bad as if somebody were to, you know, kneecap Tristan on the floor and ruin his career as a result. And then, you know, post a jokey meme about it. This isn't funny. Real people got hurt in real ways. And so, you know, while I was never much a fan of Gary's humor, regardless. I think it's really, really important that we hold the people responsible for all that activity.
Ryan:
[54:20] Yeah, we had bad refs. At the end of the day, we had bad refs. Guys, this was a fantastic episode. Love Tristan what you're doing from the bottom up, building that interest in crypto and Paul what you're doing from the top down in the halls of our government. This has been really fun to have you both on this collaborative episode. So stop by again soon.
Paul:
[54:38] Thanks, guys.
Tristan:
[54:40] I appreciate having us. Thank you so much. Paul, keep doing what you're doing, man. You're making Northeast Ohio proud. Making us proud.
Paul:
[54:45] Thank you, Tristan. That's right. And keep doing what you're doing. We're proud of all that you've made happen for Northeast Ohio and for crypto.
Tristan:
[54:53] Thank you. Thank you.
David:
[54:54] Tristan, when does Basketball.fun open up?
Tristan:
[54:56] Opening week is opening week of the season, so October 22nd. So be on the lookout.
Ryan:
[55:01] Here we go, guys.
David:
[55:02] It's coming up.
Ryan:
[55:02] You know, none of this has been financial advice, hasn't been sports advice either. You could lose what you put in, but we are headed west. This is the frontier. It's not for everyone, but we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot.